« American Public Media on Giving Online | Main | Zefferelli Offers Pope A Makeover »

December 15, 2007

Comments

Feed You can follow this conversation by subscribing to the comment feed for this post.

Gerry

I hardly seems like you have made it outside the gates of WB with Candidia still there as your patron. At least she leaves you alone if you make money at WB, what do you have to do to keep a low profile at a boutique charity? Seems like you may have traded on executioner for another. And so it goes, there is no outside WB.

Master Phil

You read the parable correctly, Gerry. That is the moral of it. The question is whether philanthropy or giving can be more than what this post suggests. By limning the limits of wealth bondage, a wealth bondage that includes philanthropy, perhaps we can define at least negatively a giving that exceeds it. From within Wealth Bondage such excess can only seem like garbage or frivolity. But only what exceeds Wealth Bondage can reform it, although every effort at reform will soon be colonized as the frontiers of Wealth Bondage constantly expand to coopt its alternatives. Even satire? We shall see. I suspect satire will be pushed out of Wealth Bondage onto the street sometime soon, a sack of garbage tossed violently into the public square, with a few bodies, or at least one inside, living or dead.

JJ Commoner

This has got it all, twisting into and back onto itself, a hall of mirrors with no reflection whilst showing everything.

I am thinking that it must be one of your master-works essays, one for the annals of history as it were .. and I'll bet it was fun for you to write, to boot (or is it to heel, or to heal ?)

Gerry

You know, that sounds a lot like what Negri and Hardt are saying about the productivity of the multitude. The claim is that because more and more even what we create inside WB is immaterial, largely consisting of shared linguistic product of an organization and its constituency, that there is more and more of a surplus that cannot be contained by the profit making enterprise (or Empire as the figure they use).

Any attempts to suppress the excess expression of the Multitude actually hampers there ability to be productive, and makes them unavailable for exploitation by Empire.

The point is that the surplus is already there, it just has to be acknowledged. Philanthropy has the possibility of turning the tables by understanding the way this surplus is created and strategically funding processes and institution building that fosters it. It really is what we have been talking about for a long time, more creative ways to collaboratively create in common spaces. Open source philanthropy, open source society. Why not just Open Society. BTW, I just started the Soros book of that title. Excellent so far, he is quite a thinker, not just a predictor/manipulator of financial markets.

Gerry

Yes, JJ, you can read it many ways. We have seen Phil rise in philanthropic circles, and I can hope and imagine that he has even been able to bring a little bit of this initiative into his day job. I'm sure it is quite gratifying in a way, but still so far from any ideal or principled way of being.

The saving remnant is still there and even organizing and gaining strength, but there are very dark clouds on the horizon. Can we build the Ark before the rains start?

Master Phil

Thanks, Gerry and JJ, yes, it was fun to write, as the hall of mirrors closed on itself, revealing nothing and everything in the endless circulation of the gift, the surplus, the excess. I discover how much I learned from deconstruction in my resistance to it. Yet I hope what comes through is moral outrage. We witness to our role as Fools and Knaves as decoys do to passing ducks, to bring them in range of the guns.

Master Phil

No, at work no levity. Wealth Bondage Philanthropy is a serious business affected with the public trust. If ever we began laughing, the world might turn upside down. Such a revolution would win no support in high places, for the more the wheel of Fortune turns, the more the low will rise, and the meek inherit.

Gerry

I wasn't suggesting you are perpetrating satires at the office, just that you are more "out" with all of this, and that the legitimate connection between financial planning and philanthropy at least makes for some positive possibilities.

Phil

Yes, the financial and estate planning do connect with philanthropy. That is a role to be played on company time. In fact, philanthropic advisory services are increasingly a part of every upscale wealth management company's professional offerings. Sean is an example of someone in that world, though as an independent. Inovision is another.

JJ Commoner

Yet I hope what comes through is moral outrage. We witness to our role as Fools and Knaves as decoys do to passing ducks, to bring them in range of the guns.

I think that things are hopelessly broken, and must fall apart to be revealed as fundamentally broken to the large majority of us either too lazy, too stupid, too busy and distracted or too greedy to take the time to notice and care.

I enjoy myself more these days by realizing (and playing in my imagination with) the fact that the "U" key is right next to the "i" key and that a slight slip of keyboard fingering would render Phil as Master Phul.

Phil

Thanks, JJ. My day is coming. "What? What? Explain yourself!" I have no excuses, no more alibis. Born Again is my best shot.

Phil

Maybe if we add wings to the Dumpster and we all push it down the street fast enough it will take off?

Gerry

It may not work, but it would be a great spectacle all the same. The truth masquerading as fantasy about the spectacle of lies.

Gerry

Although you probably couldn't push one fast enough, if you dropped it from high enough with a big parachute glider thing, I bet you could land it on Main Street USA.

Pass the 'Bird over here. Any volunteers with experience with this sort of thing? Any professional stunt fools?

Phil

Reminds me of Diogenes who, when all Thebes, was busy preparing for war, and men and supplies crowded the streets, rolled his empty barrel up and down the thoroughfare, his face serious and warlike.

Hagere

The culture of Christianity does not save the nation Jesus and his Gospel save nations
The Article is written by Andrew Wommack

Many people around the world who embrace "Christianity" have never heard the true Gospel. They believe Christianity is nothing but a different set of rules, substituting Christian "dos and don'ts" for those of other religions. They continue to believe they must earn their way to God and then do their best to deserve the benefits of salvation. That's not the true Gospel.

Accepting Jesus as your Savior with the belief that you are now going to abide by a certain set of rules, or exchange one set for another, is not the good news. Why? Because it still depends upon your performance. And I can guarantee you that the devil will make sure you know that your performance is not quite good enough. He is the accuser of the brethren (Rev. 12:10).

The truth that makes the Gospel the "nearly-too-good-to-be-true news" is that we are accepted by God through what Jesus did for us. The revelation of God's grace will deliver you from a performance mentality to a total trust and reliance upon the Lord. Salvation is all about God's faithfulness, not ours! This is foundational for maintaining a close relationship with God and receiving all the benefits of your salvation.

Romans 1:16-17 says,

"For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek. For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith."

The book of Romans communicates that the Gospel is the power of God. It's what produces the life of God in people. However, the word Gospel has become a religious term that has lost a lot of its meaning today. Many people associate "Gospel" with anything that has to do with religion, specifically the Christian religion. But "Gospel" literally means "good tidings," or "good news."

The Greek word euaggelion, which was translated "gospel" in seventy-four New Testament verses, was so rare in writings outside of the New Testament that it's only found twice in extra-biblical manuscripts. The reason for this is because this word not only meant "good news," but was actually describing "nearly-too-good-to-be-true news."

Much of "Christian culture" today associates the Gospel with these statements: "You're a sinner. If you don't repent, you're going to hell." Now, these are true statements. There is a heaven and a hell, a God and a devil, and you will go to hell if you don't repent and receive salvation, but even though all of that is truth, it's not "good news." It's not "the Gospel."

As a matter of fact, it's the complete opposite of what Paul was teaching. Roman 2:4 says it's the goodness of God that leads us to repentance, not judgment and condemnation. That is what Paul was talking about, and that is "good news."

The Gospel is directly related to the grace of God. That's the only way this forgiveness of our sins can be obtained. It isn't through our holiness or good works. God doesn't take the "good" people and save them; He justifies (extends salvation toward) the ungodly (Rom. 4:5).

This causes many problems for religious people. They say, "Wait a minute! I believe you must do this and that to be holy." Religion—false religion, man's concepts—teaches that right standing with God and His blessings come as a result of our own goodness and works.

Religious teachers say, "You must come to our church. You must pay your tithes, read your Bible, and pray more, to mention a few. Then, if you do all these things just right, God will accept you." That's anti-Gospel! It's against the "good news" of God's grace because it's putting the burden of salvation on your back—and you can't bear it. Nobody can save themselves.

That's basically the false "Gospel" that religion preaches today. They may talk about the one true God and use terminology like "God the Father." They may even mention that Jesus is the Savior of the world who died for our sins. But at its core, it's another "Gospel"—which is no Gospel at all (Gal. 1:7).

The Gospel isn't only the belief in salvation, but it's also the understanding of the means by which this salvation is obtained. "If you'll act good and do good, then you'll be good" isn't the true Gospel. Notice what Paul said while addressing the very first ministers' conference at Ephesus:

"But none of these things move me, neither count I my life dear unto myself, so that I might finish my course with joy, and the ministry, which I have received of the Lord Jesus, to testify the gospel of the grace of God" (Acts 20:24).

Another way Paul could have said this is, "I am testifying of the Gospel—which is the good news of the grace of God." The words "Gospel" and "grace" are terms that can be used interchangeably. The good news—or Gospel—is the grace of God.

Even the word salvation is misunderstood. Evangelical Christianity says that salvation is a one-time occurrence, an experience when your sins are forgiven. That's true, there is a moment when you pass from death to life, but that is not all that happens. It's an incomplete definition. Salvation isn't limited to the initial born-again experience.

Salvation is everything Jesus purchased for us through the atonement. Sozo, the Greek word from which "salvation" was translated means more than forgiveness of sin; it also means healing, deliverance, and prosperity. It's a word that summarizes everything that Jesus provided for us through His death, burial, and resurrection.

James 5:14-15 vividly illustrates how salvation includes both healing and forgiveness of sin:

"Is any sick among you? let him call for this elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save [sozo] the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him" (brackets mine).

Salvation is a package deal and it's all accomplished by the grace of God, not our works. However, Satan is always trying to deceive us. He is the one who wants us to believe we must earn things from God. He is the one causing us to doubt the Lord's willingness to use His ability on our behalf, and unfortunately, the church is often reinforcing that belief.

I've had many believers come up to me in the prayer lines asking, "Why am I not healed? I've fasted, prayed, and studied the Word. I pay my tithes and go to church. I'm doing the best I can. What does God demand?" When I hear that, they have just given me the answer to their question. They aren't pointing to what Jesus did; they are pointing to what they have done, and that always leads to failure.

Most people believe that God moves in their lives proportional to their performance. That was the error Paul was dealing with in the book of Romans. When Paul came along and said "I'm not ashamed of the Gospel!" he was saying "I am not ashamed to tell people about the goodness, grace, and mercy of God. The Lord loves us in spite of who we are and what we've done." Now that's "good news!"

The religious folks of Paul's day thought this was terrible. They believed what he was preaching was heresy. People needed to recognize and relate to God based on how sorry they were. God wasn't happy with them or the way they were acting. They were just worms in His sight. Sound familiar?

On the surface it looks like a humble position. In reality, it's actually making a person's relationship with God dependent on self. "Look what I have done for the Lord, how holy I've been, and how much I've denied myself." This is actually a very self-centered, self-dependent way of approaching God that never produces any fruit in your life.

Religion wants to make sure that people know they are sinners and on their way to hell. However, the truth is that they already know that.

Romans 1:18-19 says,

"For the wrath of God is revealed [not going to be, but already is revealed] from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath [past tense] shewed it unto them" (brackets mine).

God's wrath has already been revealed intuitively inside of every person. Each individual has within them the knowledge of God's wrath against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men. So when someone wonders If I just tell people about the goodness of God, what will make them understand that they are sinners in need of salvation? Paul's answer was that they already knew. In their hearts, people already know that they aren't good, but sinners in need of salvation.The point is that you don't have to bombard people with the fact that they are sinners; deep in their hearts they already know. You may need to spend some time on that issue in order to make your point and strike that chord in their hearts, but not by condemning them and restricting them to religious dos and don'ts. Paul was saying, "That's not the true approach."

It's the Gospel—the nearly-too-good-to-be-true news that God has provided. It's salvation for us by grace that empowers men to receive the forgiveness of their sins, the healing of their bodies, the deliverance from Satan's oppression, and more. We don't need to convince people they are sinners; we need to show them the way out. That's the Gospel!

Do you need to be healed? The power for healing is in the Gospel. Do you need to be prospered financially? The power for financial prosperity is in the Gospel. Do you need to be delivered from the power of demonic influence, from depression, from yourself, or from something else? The power for deliverance is in the Gospel! The Gospel is the power of God. It's "nearly too good to be true."

I've just released a new book entitled Grace: The Power of the Gospel. I think it could radically change people's perception of how God relates to us. This is a synopsis of Paul's masterpiece on the subject of the Gospel of grace, the book of Romans. It has changed my life, and it can change yours too.

For the first time, I am also releasing a companion Study Guide. It's a great tool for Sunday school class, Bible studies, or one-on-one discipleship. Included inside the front cover is a CD-ROM that will allow you to reproduce as many copies as you need to facilitate teaching others.

I encourage you to get several copies of this book along with your study guide. The book is available for a gift of any amount. The study guide, including the CD-ROM, is available for a gift of $35 or more. I also have this teaching in cassette, CD, and DVD formats (DVD recorded from television).






Gerry

Come on, Hagere, now you are spamming us. Please stop.

Phil

Hagere, your journey seems to have taken you back to where I began, in Wealth Bondage. Let us not be money changers in the Temple. Instead, let us work to evict them.

Hagere

what do you mean I am spamming you??? I don't appreciate that!!!

Gerry

You are providing unsolicited advertisement for something that is not related to the topic at hand. What is your relationship to this Ministry?

As I recently mentioned in another comment about Bill O'Reilly's claims about the supposed war on Christmas, your post reveals a form of Christianity that has more to do with marketing and Wealth Bondage than it does with any spiritual pursuit. Hence Phil's comment about money changers. You would do well to expel the marketing slicksters from your spiritual practice.

And please do not copy their marketing drivel into this comment space. If you must, a link would be sufficient.

Perhaps if you could demonstrate the connection between your comment above and the current topic, I might form a different opinion of your purpose in posting here.

Phil

Gerry and I, Hagere, are both Catholic. In Catholicism, as I was taught it, is a stark contrast between things of this world and things of the next, between flesh and spirit, between worldly and spiritual life. In your tradition, the Gospel of Prosperity, filthy lucre becomes a sign of election. A very different view of the matter. In this thread I am telling my life story, how I fell from grace (Yale) into Wealth Bondage (American Bidnis) and then rose from the dead in to Philanthropy (a high class noble pursuit). Yet, clearly, the speaker is the "I", the "Phil" of this thread is a moral monster, a moral cretin who has set himself up as a moral mentor. He is preaching his own self-serving Gospel of Prosperity, and is still in the pay of Candidia Cruikshanks, CEO of Wealth Bondage. Hence, the thread tries to make clear in parable how difficult it is in our world today to forsake materialism for spirituality. Even those who feel they have done so, still reek of lucre and marketing, of "spam."

holy möeller

There is apparently a whole world of caring about this.

Something like the restless envy for sex or things.

When the pool boy scrapes the bottom of the pond he shudders.

don't .. get .. stuck .. in .. it.

Phil

Hey, this muck is my life! This is my Journey from Success to Magnificence. I have to make of my sorry life what I can. I have a lot to explain away. So, excuse me if I constantly revise by story to make myself look good.

Hagere

Thanks Phill
I think Garry is racist, sexiest and full of hate, rage, resentment ( full of all kind of ugly emotions)
I am hoping Phill will help him become a better person

Hagere

Thanks Phill
I think Garry is racist, sexiest and full of hate, rage, resentment ( full of all kind of ugly emotions)
I am hoping Phill will help him become a better person

Gerry

First of all, my name is Gerry, not Garry. Second, you have just made a very inflammatory comment about me without any grounding, and you have posted it twice just like you did with the spam post above.

I would never ask Phil to suppress you posts or to censor you. Your words cannot harm me, and regular readers of GiftHub comments will know that your accusations are false on the face of it.

Phil is right about the cultural divide and you might take heed if you want your initiatives to be well received by people raised in catholic traditions. For me, a spiritual message that is wrapped in market packaging has no authenticity or power. If I believed in that sort of thing, I'd say it originates from the Prince of Darkness, and has nothing to do with seeking the light.

Now, if you actually want to continue this dialog and connect to weightier matters rather than trying to smear a long term participant of a forum that you occasionally troll for wayward Christians that might be interesting. If you want to do that, please respond directly either to Phil's last post, or to my specific questions about your relationship to the ministry you quote above.

If you do not, I and most of the readers of this forum will conclude that you are some form of human spam-bot and not interested in dialog at all.

Phil

Maybe we will need more than one Heaven, more than one Hell, to contain us all. Gated communities in Heaven. The Catholics here and the Evangelicals there. The Jews somewhere else. The Muslims too. Are is there only one Heaven, for a specific sect, and all the rest go to some Hell without God, Markets, or Brands?

For the record, Hagere, Gerry is not guilty of the sins you mention. He was just upset that you cut and pasted an advertisement into the comment thread. He called that spam. My attitude is more Latitudinarian. I appreciate the link to your work, and your religion. But now, let's get back to the topic of this post. Me, Me, Me. Surely, my sins and my salvation are what is at issue here!

Gerry

Yes, I know, you always give someone enough rope to hang themselves. For the record, I'm not requesting any censorship, just a request from one participant to another about how to behave. I'm recommending, not demanding.

I am also challenging Hagere to contribute constructively to the site. I know you are too generous to think or suggest it, but Hagere may not be who she claims. If we look at the transcript, I'm not sure the contributions under that name amount to more than spams. Nothing purely automated, but it does seem calculated not to reveal anything and stick to a message. Many of our readers could easily compose a script for it.

Bot or human, I still have to wonder what it is for. This participation under that name. Either way, I perceive someone standing on the outside, in the shadows, only revealing what is in the script and no more.

mehitabel

If Hager was a kitty would she sit in your lap and pur?

(Since this is a thread about Phill the question is directed to him.)

Phil

I have the advantage of living in the Bible Belt. Spam, bots, and true believers tend to stick to a script and to repeat it endlessly. Come to think of it, so do pundits and think tank thinkers, also advertisers. The biggest problem with democracy is the people. If we maintain an Open Dumpster policy we have to put up with those who show up within broad limits. The conversation between the open mind and the closed mind - isn't that the challenge? Can't blame Hagere for commenting on a thread named, "My Journey from Sin to Salvation." In it I go on about having been Born Again, and how Once Saved I am always Saved. She has every right to an opinion on how well I live up to the Born Again Creed or alibi.

Gerry

Did you notice in the piece I called spam that you don't even have to be saved or born again, just somehow receive His grace through no choice or effort of your own.

Phil

I must say I only skimmed it. Once the doctrine of good works was dismissed, I found myself reassured and at ease with myself. I know that in my own case, good works are not forthcoming. Grace is my only shot. Having been Born Again, I am now pretty comfortable with my sins and my prospects for everlasting life. Sure beats having to go to Confession every Saturday, Gerry.

Gerry

Well yes, the opening of closed minds must be part of the project. And on the other side, I'm pretty sure that religious communities will be part of the necessary social transformations that are coming up. The have always been part of transformations in the past, why would that change?

Inspired also by reading "Multitude" recently, and the project of creating and growing the kind of common assets necessary for the Multitude to find expression in true democracy, I imagine that religiously inspired social movements must be made essential allies in this. Religious fundamentalists who have to insist that they have the one true path are the ones who are turning there backs on what is common for all of us. Whether you are inspired by religion or science doesn't really change the project of saving our world. It doesn't change what is justice or injustice.

Gerry

For me, good works are their own reward. Where was I just reading about the idea that pleasure is identified not just with pleasant physical sensation, but with mastering some human pursuit and doing it well. Learning and doing.

Of course we know that "good" introduces the problematic of value, but I don't usually loose that much sleep figuring that out, and I don't think many of us do.

Phil

Catherine Austin Fitts is an excellent example of a deeply religious person who finds the courage in her faith to fearlessly espouse a better world.

Hagere

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves"
. I don't play US republican party games. (Playing Christianity as well as using defense mechanisms)are typical US republican party technics.
Mr Gerry I am not in relationship with the ministry you have mentioned. I just read the article the way I read you postings on line.
Aren't you the one posted So many postings on race and ethnics on the previous thread??? What makes you think I won't get the impression that you are what I said you are?? listen Mr Gerry I am way younger than you are. you are probably twice older than my age I expect more from you SIR.

Gerry

Please point to the comments you consider to display the attitudes you accuse me of. I assure you that nobody here knows which ones you are referring to.

Respectfully.

Gerry

You may have me confused with someone else, or you may have misinterpreted some of my comments. I am really quite surprised that you have formed this opinion.

If you have no connection with that ministry then you should not be offended that I found their message crass. However the basic sentiment which you echo above:

"For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves"

Is something that I can accept in this way: What faith is really about is accepting the is-ness of the world, about trusting and accepting it. Our bodies and our cultures contain the knowledge of countless generations of survivors, so all we have to do is live according to our natures and we will be redeemed. Easy to say in theory, hard to live in reality. The random dangers and twists of chance impact fatally in countless individual tragedies, and few can maintain equanimity.

Albert

So if I understand you, Gerry, we read our bodies and our cultures for the “knowledge of countless generations of survivors,” for the hints that will lead to human flourishing. I can see how Hagere might agree with you. There are limits to how far reason can take us. Natural Law quickly reaches it limits and needs to be supplemented with Divine Law, and the Divine Law is most clearly understood by her, Phil, and the other Rapture-ready. Sitting around the Christmas tree this past Tuesday, half buried in piles of cheap junk made in China, I wondered whether there might perhaps be a Mercantile Law even higher than Divine Law. If there is such a thing, we’re all in deep trouble, sitting in front of our computers wondering about the state of Phil’s soul rather than going out and helping to maximize the GDP.

Gerry

Yes, and I'm also saying that whether your inspiration is science or religion the implications are similar. The only Divine Law is the fact of the world. The puzzle is that being in the world, our beliefs and theories about the world are part of the world too, and are part of the world. The scientist explains it with evolution and selection, and religion uses divine purpose. Either way there is a fit between the world and the being in it.

A more critical issue is whether your theory or religion is open or closed. Does it present itself as complete and perfect or a work it progress? Over the long haul evolutionary systems have to put a premium on adaptability because the one constant is change. All closed systems become extinct, only open systems can survive change.

Mercantile law, like the rest of human creation is necessarily incomplete, and actually quite limited in applicability. It's just that the market fundies are in the ascendance and Mammon rules the worlds of gods and men.

Phil

To be saved by works or saved by faith is the theological dividing point between Catholic and Calvinist traditions. I started out Catholic, but turned to the Calvinist tradition when it became apparent that I could not reform my behavior, and had in fact no intention of reforming. You can have you cake (sin) and eat it too (be saved). The process is fast, simple, and cheap. A single afternoon, including travel time, a meal and a couple of beers, church, and a few more beers, and you are fixed for all of eternity no matter what you do to your fellow man. "Once saved always saved." As a side effect, you are filled with a powerful urge to convert others to your faith. That is what I am trying to do here as a Morals Tutor to the Stars.

For the record, Albert, my soul is not a source of concern. I have been Saved. You intellectuals make this too difficult.

As for the Mercantile Ethic, read Weber. All these pieces fit. Hidden Hand, Mercantilism, Protestant Work Ethic, Salvation by Faith Alone, Signs of Election.

Gerry, are you Christian?

Wut Cack'ty Thinks

"Even Hager didn't wake up going, 'let me do the most evil thing I can do today'," said Cackety. "I think he woke up in the morning and using a twisted, backwards logic, he set out to do what he thought was 'good'. Stuff like that just needs reprogramming."

Cackety Dishpans

Adolf Hitler was a vile, heinous vicious killer responsible for one of the greatest acts of evil committed on the planet.

God(win)'s Law

We welcome and accept Cackety Dishpans' statement that Hitler was a 'vicious killer' and that he did not mean for his remarks about the Nazi leader to be mistaken for praise.

Jada Pinkit

As a teenager, Cack was too focused on sex to think about any other vices. He still is.

Phil

Hagere is a woman, I believe.

Phil

I am afraid we are drifting off topic. The theme of this thread is ME. My moral biography, my journey from success to significance, or sin to salvation. The moral biography of a moral hero and exemplar and teacher. OK?

Phil

I live and work in a Dumpster by choice. It is my destiny, my fate. Providence's hand led me to this in fulfillment of my calling. I did not fail per se. I was called to fail in the spirit of Jesus, born in a manger and died on a cross.

Antoine Möeller

What is your Greatest Doubt as you experience the smooth unfolding of your Fate?

Perhaps it would be useful to split the question:

Greatest Doubt, pre-Saved   |   Greatest Doubt, post-Saved

...or

Does Salvation represent the vanquishing of pre-Saved Doubt? Does post-Saved Doubt ever crop up? If so, when, where, how; be specific. Does it still crop up but is very easy to dismiss? (I am very interested in Doubt, if it is not yet apparent.)

...further

Is a Congregation crucial to support your Salvation - or, if one were marooned on a desert island, could one experience a Salvation of the same or superior character?

Antoine Möeller

(This better be worth it. Being focused on YOU is exhausting.)

Phil

Pre-Saved I doubted my ability to get off scott free. I was running out of alibis. My creditors, law, and my various wives were closing in. After-Saved, no problems. No doubts, no compunction. Christ already died for my sins. A blank check. No doubt about it. We can do whatever we want because it always already forgiven. It is almost too good to be true. A Congregation helps, Pastor Blowtorch is good at motivating us, but it comes down to my Personal Relationship with Jesus. He is a good guy and he feels the same about me.

Gerry

Gerry, are you Christian?

Yes, the Pope hasn't excommunicated me yet so I am still a confirmed member of the flock. My tendency would be to respond to that question with, "Who wants to know?" For some sects, as a Catholic, I am by definition outside the ranks of Christians, which is odd since at times and many places it was the only way possible to be a Christian.

In the end, I don't really want to be anything. I reject the idea of being "agnostic" outright, and I find that atheists have an awful lot of faith that there isn't a God, but they don't know any more than anyone else.. To me atheism is a sort of null hypothesis. Can you construct a moral theory without God? How would you live if you knew that there is no soul that survives death? Then if it does it is a happy surprise. If there is a God and He would condemn be for not being able to determine the right God to worship or choose the right set of rules, then so be it. It's sort-or Pascal's wager in reverse.

Gerry

Phil,

Can you ever really leave behind Catholic guilt? It is part of why we have so much affinity with Jewish people, we share a common guilt. I didn't go to Catholic schools, and Catechism stopped pretty early, so I don't think it is as deeply ingrained with me as with many Catholics, but I recognize it nonetheless.

On the born again side, I'm hip with the idea of clearing up that original sin thing. I never thought is was proper to use it as a hammer for guilt. We were tossed out of paradise by our own developing moral thought. Nature is no longer s simple guide for right behavior, it has become wrapped in cultural taboos and proscriptions.

Can we return to the Garden after having experienced the moral ambiguity and outright evil in the world? Perhaps, but not as innocent children following only our natural tendencies and desires, only as adults who take ownership of our moral destiny.

Antoine Möeller

Proposition:

"The Wicked" may have a greater "moral sense" than "The Evil" in that they allow for the possibility that their actions are wrong.

The Wicked may doubt. The Evil never do.

[link]

Phil

Ponerology is an obscure, oft suppressed, book about evil as experienced and studied by psychologists in both Germany and Russia under totalitarian terror. They conclude that Hitler, Stalin, and those they promoted around them were defective, that they were among the 5% of the population who, because of physical trauma, or after-effects of childhood injury, or other reasons, never develop a conscience. They simply do not "get" the idea that injuring others is wrong. They feel no compunction, though they learn to to fake feelings they may not have in order to get along with others. But they see their absence of compunction as a truth open to them and closed to all but their chosen few. These defectives seek one another out and form cliques. The preface to the book paints the rise of the Neocons in these terms. Another such diagnosis would be extreme narcissism. Machiavelli seems to counsel ruthlessness. In any case, Gerry, I do feel guilt constantly. Catholic guilt no doubt. We were given the Garden to care for it, and look at the mess we have made.

Antoine Möeller

And so we arrive at the nub again. Information pr0n, like carnal pr0n, keeps us busy orbiting the periphery, unwilling to land.

Wicked smart.

Phil

Good and evil, vice and virtue, are like seeds of wheat and weeds planted or strewn in the garden or the field or on stony ground. We know the weeds will choke out the flowers, or the wheat, unless the tares are pulled up and burned. The message of Jesus, as I understand it, is that we begin with our own garden and weed it, the garden within, the kingdom within. Such an example inspires, and spreads, among those "with ears to hear and eyes to see." They say that when the student is ready the teacher will appear. Perhaps we could also say that when the patient is ready the physician will appear. Another nub.
http://tinyurl.com/34jovc

Another indisputable saying, from Sicily: "The fish rots from the head down."

Antoine Möeller

Rot not.

Phil

Thanks, Antoine, blogged it.

Antoine Möeller

Fun with tangents:

And so, in a culture of secondary orality, we may be less likely to spend time with ideas we disagree with. Self-doubt, therefore, becomes less likely. In fact, doubt of any kind is rarer.

p.5, Twilight of the Books, via Fitts

Phil

Right, talking heads modeling indignation. Pick your channel and rage along with them.

hagere

Hagere embraces CHRIST more than ever. Our only and one hope.

Blessings to all. I hope you had wonderfull Holiday.

Gerry

Hi Hagere, long time, no hear. I'm sure none of us thought your faith had waivered.

phil

Hello, Hagere, hope all is well with you.

The comments to this entry are closed.

About

Wealth Bondage Premium Content

  • Castle by the Sea
    Provided as a professional courtesy at no extra charge to those with net worth of $25 million or more and/or family income of $500,000 a year or more, and to their Serving Professionals of all genders.