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May 09, 2007

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klaus

Democratic progress is best measured by charting the growth of the PROI polloi.

Phil

Or the populace crushed like grapes to make wine.

klaus

Ya gotta wonder.

For instance, Ludovic Blain, who has apparently joined MOOO, the brand new progressive organization "Moved On to Other Opportunities," seemed kinda hyped about PROI just one month ago:

http://www.ludovicspeaks.com/2007/04/my_job_featured.html

Wrong kind of return, I guess.

Phil

Thanks, Klaus, blogged it.

Ludovic Blain

Klaus, that was a potshot. Typical lurker style, just wanted to call it out when i saw it.

Phil, as you said in another post, "No good deed goes unpunished."

I've taken risks in my progressive career, and am proud about what I've learned, and what the movement has learned, from each one, even those, like NPC, that haven't worked. I've started up environmental justice groups, media justice groups, and worked on other issues before they were well-known or well-funded. My tenure at NPC had as a goal to shake giving away from people like you who, as you said, don't want a political return.

You apparently have the luxury to wish to go back to democracy in Athens. Many of us don't have your privilege to be wistful, and need to change politics, change policies, and change societies. Here in the real world we need political change, and to pursue all strategies to achieve it.

Lastly, Phil, you seem to be showing the same naivete about politics here as you are in the post on change.org. And when your critiques of philanthropy reinforce it's ineffective boundaries, you do us all a diservice. If only the religious fundamentalist, corporate and supremacist right wings limited their strategies to your vision, we'd all be in a better place.

Phil Cubeta

Thanks, Ludovic, for framing the issues so starkly. I think we agree that Machiavellian politics are the norm with both parties and with your "progressivism" as well. Those who stand against it are pre-political - outcasts from the process altogether. In the symbolism here, I as Diogenes live in a Dumpster, cast out like our democratic traditions. I can feel in your comment your disdain for what I stand for. I welcome that and encourage you to think through your contempt of democracy and to articulate it clearly.

klaus

Hi Ludovic. Thanks for calling me out, I've been cooped up here too long. A "lurker" is somebody who subscribes to a mailing list, and reads but never posts. I think you meant "troll." I thought you had been fired against your will, after naively supporting an agenda that led to your dismissal. I wasn't taking a potshot, I guess I just read everything too quickly. Sorry for the misunderstanding. I have to say, though, that the remark from the other post -"If politics are lost on you, let the folks play the game who know it" - seems kind of egregious.

Phil

Leaving politics to the oligarchs and their faithful servants is the one thing both parties agree upon. "Butt out, Citizen," is the message. "And, send money. We are not interested in your opinions; we will use the money we raise to manufacture the public opinion."

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